New Planets

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Re: New Planets

Post by Mersenne » Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:20 pm

SUGGESTED KEYWORDS FOR ERIS AND SEDNA HVE BEEN REMOVED.

UPDATED KEYWORDS FOR THESE, HAUMEA AND MAKEMAKE COMING SOON. THESE WILL BE ON PDFS FOR MEMBERS ONLY.
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Re: New Planets

Post by admin » Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:01 pm

A clear and detailed description I must say! Thankyou for posting this - what clearly is a lot of work - here.

I've just re-read all the previous matters you've posted on this and would like to ask now: What orbs do you use/allow for Eris and Sedna?
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Re: New Planets

Post by Mersenne » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:09 pm

I use +/- 5 degrees only, with reservations between 4 and 5 unless the aspect is applying. However, I've noticed possible wider orbs if the aspect has an occupied midpoint.
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Re: New Planets

Post by admin » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:10 pm

“I use +/- 5 degrees only, with reservations between 4 and 5 unless the aspect is applying. However, I've noticed possible wider orbs if the aspect has an occupied midpoint”.
Interesting that you give (what many would consider, I suspect), such a ‘wide’ orb. I do feel that these ‘outer planetoid influences’ need to have wider orbs (such as you have given), especially given their long-range influence. (I haven’t worked with them enough to look at the orb influence – will do so. However, ‘orbs’ are certainly relevant to each individual chart, and surely can be widened accordingly, which of course then, becomes relevant to the ‘rulerships and sub-rulerships’, which you have covered).

‘Applying’ and ‘Separating’ are, of course, important, and this would be where the rulerships/sub-rulerships become relevant?

Midpoints are another matter (for me). (Gave up on these after a lot of work, as there were too many to take into consideration ...except for conjunctions with midpoints, which I use).

Am going back to previous matters now:
re
“These seemed to me to be, for Eris, the competitive nature of Taurean expression (for resources rather than against opposition)...”.
I recently saw a documentary about the shift from mesolithic to neolithic communities, ie. when ‘hunter/gatherers’ became ‘agricultural’ societies (8,000-5,000 BC). This was when the sense of the ownership of land ‘began’ and when, therefore, small groups started to centralise, resulting ultimately in making claims on their ‘own’ areas and inevitably, fighting for those claims. In this sense, Eris is well chosen for Taurus (earth, possession). (I looked for where Eris would have been at that time...didn’t expect to find anything but found this: http://www.astro.com/swisseph/ Needs major d/loads etc.)
“Sedna percieves the outer
world with dissatisfaction, almost like Uranus...”.
She surely does perceive the outer world with dissatisfaction (looking at her, only mythologically). So, as I said before I find it hard to equate her with Virgo. Obviously you have worked on this matter, but I always need to ‘see’ for myself, how these energies ...work. And again, as I said before, you clearly have done ‘all the work’ which would take me forever to attempt, so am accepting your deductions... at this point.

(By the way, do you have Mike Brown’s site? http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/ I used to be able to get an RSS on a previous site I had, but that’s not working anymore. It may/may not be of interest).
He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever.
Chinese proverb

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Re: New Planets

Post by Mersenne » Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:24 am

Please excuse me, Admin, I answered rather offhandedly. Of course I intend +/- 5 degrees for the conjunction, opposition, trine and square only, then for harmonic "x" I attempt to use +/- 5/x degrees, although I rarely adhere strictly to this; +/- 2 degrees for sextile, quintile, semisextile seem to work well, +/- 1 degree for septile, semisextile and quincunx.

I would suggest Virgo is an intensely dissatisfied sign, indeed, that the "fussiness" attributed to it is a euphemism for a much deeper and more existential need to keep the world running smoothly. The mythological associations of Sedna are essentially the same as for Persephone; sustained abuse of a young woman associated with an essential resource (Sedna fish, Persephone grain). Hence I equate the two.

I don't typically have time to indulge my astrological interests outside the weekend (the day job, alas, must be my priority), but will make an effort to check your links. Thank you for your continued encouragement.
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Re: 'New Planets'

Post by admin » Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:54 pm

Thanks for that Mersenne.

Just thought I'd mention this:
For those interested in the position of Eris: http://www.thegreenduck.com/ka/eph/Eris ... ck-eph.txt

And for Sedna: http://www.thegreenduck.com/ka/eph/Sedna-annual-eph.txt
He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever.
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Re: New Planets

Post by Mersenne » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:55 am

In my recent research on Eris and Sedna it became necessary to consider not only the rulerships of these newly-discovered planets, but their place in the scheme of rulerships in general.

Conventional works on Astrology rarely make clear what the link is between the Sub-Ruler and its Sign. For instance, of the 308 words under “Capricorn” in "The Rulership Book" (R.E. Bills, 1971) some 196 are also listed under “Saturn”, which clearly indicates the rulership. However, only 13 “Capricorn” words are listed under “Uranus”- and 9 of these are shared with Saturn. On this evidence, we are justified in asking what stake Uranus has in Capricorn, and in particular, how it can possibly sub-rule or even partially represent house cusps in Capricorn. In fact, "The Rulership Book" is very neglectful of verbs and adverbs, concentrating almost exclusively on nouns and adjectives. The relationship between ruler, sub-ruler and sign, however, is an active one; Uranus is essential to the expression of Capricorn, and has a very intimate relationship with its co-ruler Saturn. Here follows a brief outline of my suggested relationships between the rulers and sub-rulers of each sign, amongst which I have placed my interpretations of Eris and Sedna.

Aries: Both Mars and Pluto are dangerous, hostile, fatal. Tenants of Aries and planets aspected by Mars will be pushed to act and express themselves, but they cannot do so without changing, transforming in the manner of Pluto.

Taurus: Both Venus and Eris are acquisitive, luxurious, and concerned with possessions. Tenants of Taurus and planets aspected by Eris will be acquired, cultivated, and exploited, but will have all their needs answered, and come to be valued in and of themselves, in the Venus fashion.

Gemini: Both Mercury and Sedna are analytical, indecisive, and versatile. Tenants of Gemini and planets aspected by Mercury will be stimulated, encouraged to express themselves intellectually, but this leads to labelling in the Sedna fashion.

Cancer: Belongs only to the Moon.

Leo: Belongs only to the Sun.

Virgo: Both Sedna and Mercury are intellectual, nervy, and ingenious. Tenants of Virgo and planets aspected by Sedna will be scrutinised, cleaned, and pared down, but this will facilitate expression in the Mercury fashion.

Libra: Both Eris and Venus evaluate, appraise, and appreciate. Tenants of Libra and planets aspected by Venus will be loved, accommodated, given what is required, but this will buy them, making them possessions in the Eris fashion.

Scorpio: Both Pluto and Mars are carnal, bodily, sexual. Scorpio tenants and planets aspected by Pluto will be transformed, their energies sublimated, but this will not diminish those energies, which will be expressed assertively in the Mars fashion.

Sagittarius: Both Jupiter and Neptune are religious, broad-minded, multidimensional. Tenants of Sagittarius and planets aspected by Jupiter will be helped, taught, and provided with many alternatives, but this will dissipate energies, leading to exhaustion and retreat in the fashion of Pisces.

Capricorn: Both Saturn and Uranus are cold, impersonal, objective, concerned with facts. Tenants of Capricorn and planets aspected by Saturn will be tested, constrained and conserved, but will last to become “quaint”, eccentric, in the fashion of Uranus.

Aquarius: Both Uranus and Saturn are aloof, exclusive, scientific, and unsympathetic. Tenants of Aquarius and planets aspected by Uranus will be warped and perverted, but will then become the new norm in the fashion of Saturn.

Pisces: Both Neptune and Jupiter are spiritual, other-worldly, imaginative. Tenants of Pisces and planets aspected by Neptune are confused, defocused, and made an actor or sacrifice, but this will lead to insight and understanding in the fashion of Jupiter.

Given the above, it seems much more obvious that Uranus is also a ruler of Capricorn, and that those with a rising Capricorn are much affected by the disposition of Uranus. I accord the sub ruler a good quarter of the representation of the sign. What is the opinion of the forum?
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Re: Eris and Sedna

Post by admin » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:57 pm

Hi Mersenne,

I was wondering if it would be possible for you to recall such examples as you have used for your research about Eris and Sedna, and list them, so that we can see and evaluate for ourselves, your conclusions about this matter ?

Thankyou,

Admin.
He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever.
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Re: New Planets

Post by Mersenne » Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:53 pm

Hello Admin,

Several of the horoscopes I used are those of friends and family. I have omitted those in what follows, and included only public and historical figures whose details can be found on line, 33 in all.

My method was to limit the analysis to major aspects (conjunction, opposition, trine and square) between planets, on the grounds that birth times may not be available (casting doubt on the angles), and that minor aspects require smaller orbs. Because of this uncertainty in birth times, it would be wise to treat the cited lunar aspects with some caution. I used an orb of maximum +/- 5 degrees; wider orbs are, I think, not feasible for such tiny and remote bodies.

Please let me remind the Forum that the aspects in isolation shouldn't be taken as either neutral, positive or negative- that the whole picture should be taken into account. Square and opposition aren’t necessarily bad, because these can denote energy and realisation; trine isn't necessarily good because it can represent inertia and complacency; and conjunction is never, ever, neutral. A lot more can be said for Eris and Sedna in all the horoscopes cited- I leave this to the interested reader.

The majority of subjects I investigated for Sedna were scientists and philosophers; for Eris, I used mostly financiers. Some individuals, notably economists, have an interesting overlap between the two; The Eris-Sedna trines of Adam Smith, the author of Wealth of Nations, and Isaac Newton (Warden of the Royal Mint in his later years) are particularly telling.

ER-SU:
Alan Sugar conjunct
Chris Evans (presenter) conjunct
Dmitri Mendeleev conjunct (there is indeed a finance connection here)
Charles Ponzi conjunct
Joseph Kennedy Snr. opposition
Clive Sinclair trine
Karl Marx square

ER-MO:
Isaac Newton conjunct
Joseph Kennedy Snr. opposition
Warren Buffet trine
Chris Evans (presenter, entrepreneur) trine
Karl Marx square
Albert Einstein square

ER-ME:
Richard Branson trine
Warren Buffet opposition
Elan Musk square
John Maynard Keynes square

ER-VE:
Charles Ponzi conjunct
Margeret Thatcher trine

ER-MA
Henry Clay Frick square
Warren Buffet square

ER-JU:
Baron NM Rothschild square

ER-SA:
Alan Sugar trine
Warren Buffet square

ER-UR
Dmitri Mendeleev conjunction
John Meynard Keynes opposition
Elon Musk opposition
Charles Ponzi opposition
Fred Goodwin trine (wide of 5 degrees, but notable for other reasons)
Richard branson square

ER-NE:
Henry Clay Frick conjunction
Alan Sugar opposition
Milton Freidman trine

ER-PL:
Clive Sinclair trine
Alan Sugar trine
Milton Friedman square

ER-SE:
Adam Smith trine
Isaac Newton trine

SE-SU:
Margaret Thatcher opposition
Carl Gustav Jung trine
Milton Friedman trine
Sheldon Lee Glashow trine

SE-MO:
Isaac Newton trine
Leda Cosmedes trine
Leonardo da Vinci square
Adolf Hitler square

SE-ME:
Albert Einstein conjunction
Immanuel Velikovsky square
G.I. Durdjieff square
Clive Sinclair square
JRR Tolkien square
Alan Turing square

SE-VE:
Leonardo da Vinci square
George I Gurdjieff square

SE-MA:
Karl Marx trine
Clive Sinclair trine
Alan Turing Trine

SE-JU:
Sigmund Freud conjunction
John Maynard Keynes square
Rene Thom trine
Alan Turing trine
Immanuel Velikovsky square
Margeret Thatcher square
Adolf Hitler square

SE-SA
Albert Einstein conjunction
JRR Tolkien opposition
Rene Thom opposition
Leonardo da Vinci trine
Richard Feynman trine
Sigmund Freud square

SE-UR
Sheldon Lee Glashow conjunction
G.I. Gurdjieff square
Karl Marx square

SE-NE:
Rene Thom trine
Isaac Newton square
Karl Marx square

SE-PL
Karl Marx conjunction
Leda Cosmedes trine
Isaac Newton square
Margaret Thatcher square
Rene Thom square

The following interesting anomalies were observed:
JP Morgan has no major Eris aspects.
Rene Descartes has only a wide Sedna trine Mars.
Adam Smith has no major Eris aspects except that with Sedna.
These anomalies are possibly due to the unknown birth times; the angles, not investigated, may be involved. Or perhaps minor aspects are of greater significance than I have supposed.

The above, I think, constitutes strong evidence for my interpretations, but not proof. Historical charts are useful litmus tests, but true insight will come only with the growing familiarity of astrologers with the behaviour of these new planets in modern charts. I should be very surprised if my interpretations are spot on, and hope that the forum will investigate them with proper caution. I should be very interested in feedback on this matter.
See on this Forum:
Mersenne’s Astrological Statistics & Datasets
Mersenne’s Microcosm
Mersenne’s Transneptunians

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Re: New Planets

Post by Rapsody3 » Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:54 pm

When astrologers consider the rulerships and the newly discovered trans-Neptunians, they almost always look at the mythology. But as Richard Tarnas has pointed out, this might not be the right way. In his book "Prometheus - the Awakener" he argues that Prometheus would have been a better name for the planet now named Uranus from a mythological/astrological perspective.

I am a great fan of Linda Goodman's "Sun Signs" and "Love Signs". Just like Liz Greene, Linda Goodman assumes that there is one ruler for each of the 12 astrological signs. And I believe quantum physics supports this assumptions: Everything in the world is a product of 12 different vibrations only.

So, every time a new dwarf planet was discovered, I got the ephemeris for the planet from Swiss Ephemeris and tried to experiment with the planets. My experiments were done in 3 different ways:

1) Rectifications
2) Horary and elections charts
3) Chart analysis

Ad 1)
As for rectifications I have started a thread here: viewtopic.php?f=88&t=2849.

Ad 2)
Horary and election charts don't need any comment, they speak for themselves.

Ad 3)
Once a chart is rectified, you can analyse it - or rather: Get a feeling for it. After having done thousands of rectifications, I can intuitively feel the major components in a chart merely by looking at a photo of a person. For instance I can say: This person's most dominant factors are among the following vibrations: Sun-Leo, Neptune-Pisces and Mars-Aries. If the person radiates Virgo, it can be because of the ascendant or the Sun in Virgo, but it may also be because the true ruler of Virgo is in aspect with the ascendant or the MC - or is placed in one of the so-called Gauquelin sectors, which roughly speaking are the 5th, the 9th and the 12th house.

From Linda Goodman and the astrological tradition in general I knew what to expect from the ruler of Taurus: Something with money and also something with death. Pluto and the 8th house represent "my death" and "death in general", while the ruler of Taurus would represent "other people's death", i.e. when doing a rectification and the rectification event is the death of people in the client's family or other close ones, then you can expect to find a major aspect with either Pluto, the ruler of the 8th house in the chart, the ruler of the 2nd house or the ruler of Taurus. Similarly, the ruler of Virgo would have something to do with work matters and health problems.

By 2007 I had established beyond doubt that Eris rules Taurus and Makemake rules Virgo. Of course it is a comprehensive study, I cannot communicate it all here, I would instead need to write a book about it, but I shall be happy to answer any question.

What about the other dwarf planets? I don't know, and I don't care very much, because the point for me was to find the missing rulers - not to determine the astrological nature of each and every heavenly object.

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