New Planets

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New Planets

Post by Mersenne » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:54 am

What is the currrent thinking on the rulerships of Virgo and Taurus? I allocate Sedna to Virgo and Eris to Taurus (as co-, not main or sub-rulers) for the following reasons.

1. Aesthetic. The allocation completes the traditional schema, putting the planets in the order from the fastest moving (Moon) to the slowest (and remembering that the Sun is actually still). I illustrate this in the attachment.
2. Mythological. There are two mythological Erises; the Goddess of discord who threw the Golden Apples at Peleus' wedding, suggesting an antithetical connection with Venus and Libra, and a less sinister daughter of Nyx, connected with a primitive work ethic. Both suggest Taurus. Sedna is the Inuit analogue of Persephone, the Virgin herself. The prominence of marine resources should, I think, be deemphasised in terms of reflex action from Pisces.
3. Synchronistic. Sedna was discovered in 2003, the European Year of Disability; very Virgo/6th house. Eris was discovered in 2005, when the policy of subprime mortgage management achieved its earliest prominance. Eris thus established her presence ready to preside over the current financial troubles; Taurus and the economy are linked in Mundane astrology.
4. Personal. The suggested rulerships sit well in my own Nativity.

Has the forum any thoughts on the matter?
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Last edited by Mersenne on Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Planets

Post by admin » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:40 pm

Hello Mersenne, and welcome.

This is fascinating and thankyou for posting it. Clearly you have worked much with these rulerships...and I agree that these (at least in this point in time) have to be ‘sub-rulerships’.

I am particularly interested in the fact that you see Sedna as ‘Persephone’. Years ago I was working with the ‘idea’ of Persephone, and ‘assigned’ her to Libra (as she was ‘moving’ between Virgo/Ceres/Demeter and Scorpio/Pluto/Hades). Then of course, Eris and Sedna (plus a few others) were discovered, and I pursued the idea no longer. What intrigues me most is that you have assigned Sedna to Virgo, especially with your attachment, which appears to make these sub-rulerships obvious.

Eris too is given by many to be a ‘very angry female’. I’m not sure about Eris and Taurus and would appreciate more about this. (I can see from the following, why you would connect Eris with Taurus).

Had never heard of the daughter of Nyx. Looked and found it in Wikipedia (for others to view):

In Greek mythology, Nyx (Νύξ, "night", Nox in Roman translation) was the primordial goddess of the night. A shadowy figure, Nyx stood at or near the beginning of creation, and was the mother of personified gods such as Hypnos (sleep) and Thánatos (death). Her appearances in mythology are sparse, but reveal her as a figure of exceptional power and beauty.



Mythology and literature
Hesiod
In Hesiod's Theogony, Nyx is born of Chaos; her offspring are many, and telling. With Erebus the deity of shadow and darkness, Nyx gives birth to Aether (atmosphere) and Hemera (day). Later, on her own, Nyx gives birth to Momus (blame), Moros (doom), Thanatos (death), Hypnos (sleep), Charon (the ferryman of Hades),[citation needed] the Oneiroi (dreams), the Hesperides, the Keres and Moirae (Fates), Nemesis (retribution), Apate (deception), Philotes (friendship), Geras (age), and Eris (strife). In his description of Tartarus, Hesiod says further that Hemera (day), who is Nyx's daughter, left Tartarus just as Nyx entered it; when Hemera returned, Nyx left. This mirrors the portrayal of Ratri (night) in the Rigveda, where she works in close cooperation but also tension with her sister Ushas (dawn).

[edit] Homer
In Book 14 of Homer's Iliad, there is a quote by Hypnos, the minor god of sleep, in which he reminds Hera of an old favor after she asks him to put Zeus to sleep. He had once before put Zeus to sleep at the bidding of Hera, allowing her to cause Heracles (who was returning by sea from Laomedon's Troy) great misfortune. Zeus was furious and would have smitten Hypnos into the sea if he had not fled to Nyx, his mother, in fear. Hypnos goes on to say that Zeus, fearing to anger Nyx, held his fury at bay, and in this way Hypnos escaped the wrath of Zeus. He disturbed Zeus only a few times after that always fearing Zeus and running back to his mother Nyx, who would have confronted Zeus with a maternal fury.

Nyx took on an even more important role in several fragmentary poems attributed to Orpheus. In them, Nyx, rather than Chaos, is the first principle. Nyx occupies a cave or adyton, in which she gives oracles. Cronus – who is chained within, asleep and drunk on honey – dreams and prophesies. Outside the cave, Adrasteia clashes cymbals and beats upon her tympanon, moving the entire universe in an ecstatic dance to the rhythm of Nyx's chanting. Phanes – the strange, monstrous, hermaphrodite Orphic demiurge – was the child or father of Nyx. Nyx is also the first principle in the opening chorus of Aristophanes' The Birds, which may be Orphic in inspiration. Here she is also the mother of Eros. In other texts[citation needed] she may be the mother of Charon (with Erebus), and Phthonus "envy" (with Dionysus?).

The theme of Nyx's cave or mansion, beyond the ocean (as in Hesiod) or somewhere at the edge of the cosmos (as in later Orphism) may be echoed in the philosophical poem of Parmenides. The classical scholar Walter Burkert has speculated that the house of the goddess to which the philosopher is transported is the palace of Nyx; this hypothesis, however, must remain tentative.

There is also rumor that Nyx gave birth to her reincarnation, a son whose name would also be Nyx. But she gave birth to twins, having a daughter as well, who was named Hemera, "Day". The text[citation needed] implied that Hemera was not the sister of Aether, but the sister of Nyx's reincarnation”.
Please do, if you are inclined and have the time, continue with this.
Thankyou.

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Re: New Planets

Post by Mersenne » Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:20 am

Thank you for your kind words, Admin.

I had difficulty reconciling Eris with Taurus, due to the associations of "lawlessness". On the synchronistic level this association was inescapable. Even if the original name "Xena" had been adopted, this was the name of a fictional bandit portrayed by the actress Ms. Lucy Lawless.

However, lawlessness is not possible without the concept of property, and this is certainly a Taurean association. It is even possible to identify the two; consider the old Marxist truism "property is theft". Therefore, the greed and acquisitiveness of the sign under affliction, hitherto often attributed to reflex action from Scorpio, sits very well in the rulership of Taurus.

Moreover, the secondary mythological consideration explicitely attributes strife to the envy of which this sign is capable. Following your lead, I quote from Wikipedia;

"...the other is the elder daughter of dark Night (Nyx), and the son of Cronus who sits above and dwells in the aether, set her in the roots of the earth: and she is far kinder to men. She stirs up even the shiftless to toil; for a man grows eager to work when he considers his neighbour, a rich man who hastens to plough and plant and put his house in good order; and neighbour vies with his neighbour as he hurries after wealth."

Perhaps "competitiveness" would be a better term than "strife". I consider that Eris embodies the principle of competition for resources. The co-rulership with Venus (exchange, evaluation) represents the free market; the reflex action with Scorpio (transformation), evolution. Sedna represents the Virgoan principle of simulation, the creation of working models for the purposes of understanding and maintenance. In co-rulership with Mercury (language), then, Sedna symbolises empiricism and methodologies, whereas the reflex action with Pisces (imagination) comprises story-telling and mythology.

Would the forum be interested in some arguments from individual horoscopes?
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Re: New Planets

Post by admin » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:54 pm

Yes, please do continue. Any one you choose of course, but looking at Bill Gates’ chart, (clearly rounded off to 10:00pm), Eris sits in exact conjunction with his Moon in 9th deg. Aries...in 10th ? house. How would you see this ?
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Re: New Planets

Post by Mersenne » Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:51 am

I interpret Eris as "competetiveness, recognition of and pursuit of scarce resources". I interpret Sedna as "ability to analyse and construct useful models, for means of maintenance". This is an attribute of Virgo which complements Mercury nicely; Mercury mimics, but Sedna models.

Bill Gates' Eris conjunct Moon might be the competitive cultivation (Eris) of memory (Moon) as a resource (Eris), the effective allocation of memory being the principle difficulty in early microcomputer systems. This was pursued aggresively (Aries) as a career leading to publc recognition (10th House). The trine with Uranus brings in the technological face of the enterprise (though this seems a little wide).

Sedna is in trine with the Jupiter/Pluto conjunction in Leo, Second House. An early success was an "Altair emulator" designed to model (Sedna) the action of the popular hobby machine. This was the beginning of a successful (Jupiter) and creative (Leo) undermining (Pluto) and commercialisation (Second House) of what had been a free (Jupiter) international (Jupiter) exchange of software and computing techniques.

As a further example, the influence of the new planets in the chart of Margeret Thatcher is quite interesting. Sedna completes a Grand Cross with Sun, Pluto and Jupiter. Eris completes a Grand Trine with Venus and the North Node.

First, the Cross, Sedna (Aries) Square Pluto (Cancer) Opposition Sun (Libra) Square Jupiter (Capricorn).

If my own associations are correct, then the Grand Cross may be read as
"aggressive models of policy leading to difficult and profound change in the conditions of common people"; "such models in confrontation with a centralised opposition associated with fairer distribution"; and "the same models causing difficulty for traditional concepts of liberality and charity". This seems wholly approproiate for the creator of "Thatcherism", the aggressive use of monetarist policies and the repression of non-governmental (non-Conservative) institutions and initiatives.

Secondly, the Trine, Eris (Aries) Trine North Node (Leo) Trine Venus (Sagittarius.

This would read "aggressive competition assisiting and assisted by known allies, to further the free practice and expansion of trade". Regretably, the Grand Cross effectively perverted the promise of this trine.
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Re: New Planets

Post by admin » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Thankyou very much for this. (I looked at the ‘Altair’ system, but it is beyond me, for which I apologise :oops: ).

Am very interested as to why/how you came to the conclusion that Sedna is the ‘ability to analyse and construct useful models, for means of maintenance’. (I presume that you have researched many charts to arrive at this conclusion. Am looking at and following this through.)

Do you have website or blog ?
This is fascinating and would very much like to hear more of your research.

Best,
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Re: New Planets

Post by Mersenne » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:59 pm

Thank you for your continued interest, Admin. I'm something of a technophobe, so I've neither blog nor Facebook account, but I will be happy to post the results of my research for this forum's consideration.

The initial clues for both Eris and Sedna came from a consideration of Taurus and Virgo respectively. Martin Seymour-Smith opined in "The New Astrologer" (1981) that Venus and Mercury were co-rulers only of these. It therefore became a question of which characteristics of Taurus and Virgo were not explicable in terms of element, quality and traditional ruler.

These seemed to me to be, for Eris, the competitive nature of Taurean expression (for resources rather than against opposition); there isn't much that's Venusian about the words "subsistence agriculture".

For Sedna, the Virgoan urge to maintain and repair, informed by the capacity to make accurate models. Sedna wants to clean up, to streamline and simplify the world, to keep it neat and ticking over. Consider the Virgoan connection with health and hygiene; the word "disinfectant" is not very Mercurial.

It was also important that both planets "sat well" in Aries, otherwise we'd have gotten some very atypically Arian types over the course of the planets' tenancy of this sign. Giving a competitive definition to Eris and a cerebral one to Sedna works well.

With a working hypothesis, it remained to consider those historical charts in which either (or, in the case of M. Thatcher, both) figured prominently. I have done this dilligently, and become quite convinced- but not so certain that I wouldn't be glad of a counterargument. Any strong objection, if overcome, would enhance our understanding.
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Re: New Planets

Post by Mersenne » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:22 am

It occured to me after that last post that I haven't provided many examples yet. Sedna percieves the outer
world with dissatisfaction, almost like Uranus, but since Virgo rules the stomach, this is felt more
viscerally. Perhaps disgust is a better word. It is disgust which prompts us to clean up, to put right. This
can have positive consequences (e.g. Joseph Lister), but let's consider a profoundly negative example, that of Adolf Hitler.

Hitler's Moon-Jupiter conjunction in Capricorn is squared by Sedna from Aries. Sedna must therefore
view this conjunction unsympathetically, and it's easy to do so; the Moon is in its detriment, and Jupiter
feels the constraints of the earth element. If Sedna views this constraint with disgust, it might indeed form
an ambitious (Capricorn) model of an expanded (Jupiter) home base (Moon) for oneself or one's people (Moon); the policy of Lebensraum. But why was the realisation of this model attempted in so brutal a fashion?

Pluto is the planet most typically associated with fascism, and there is a close sextile between this and
Sedna. The opportunity to employ fascist cant and brutality in the pursuit of Sedna's aim? Certainly, but a
subtler interpretation is possible. Pluto is conjunct Neptune in Gemini, suggestive of the Norse myth of
the Fimbulwinter, of Ragnarok, of universal destruction. Hitler's disgust may in turn have been employed
by this powerful archetype- a sextile is a trap as well as an opportunity.

Hitler's fascism is probably better explained by the affliction of the Mars-Venus conjunction by Saturn.
As Julia says in Orwell's 1984, "all this marching up and down and cheering and waving flags is simply
sex gone sour". But Mars has access to Sedna's energies via its rulership of Aries (Mars is also in novile
aspect to Sedna), so Eris' capacity to make models is, in turn, easily integrated into this most dangerous configuration.

Eris in Pisces is rather subdued in this chart, but there is a quincunx to retrograde Uranus in Libra. The
cultivation of resources (Eris) is thus linked by debt or obligation (quincunx) to a revolutionary
and technological principle (Uranus). But Pisces suggests diffusion and loss (Neptune afflicted by Pluto,
Jupiter by Sedna), and Libra has little chance of balancing Uranus (Venus afflicted by Saturn in its sign
of detriment). This is a sketch of the hyperinflation of the 1930s, a major biographical factor in
Hitler's life, and in that of his generation.
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Re: New Planets

Post by admin » Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:27 pm

Thank you for your continued interest, Admin. I'm something of a technophobe so I've neither blog nor Facebook account, but I will be happy to post the results of my research for this forum's consideration.
Ditto...made a ‘blog’ but can never find it again; was pulled into Facebook by friends, but...really didn’t like it so, left there.
The initial clues for both Eris and Sedna came from a consideration of Taurus and Virgo respectively. Martin Seymour-Smith opined in "The New Astrologer" (1981) that Venus and Mercury were co-rulers only of these. It therefore became a question of which characteristics of Taurus and Virgo were not explicable in terms of element, quality and traditional ruler”.

Indeed, yes...couldn’t be, especially as ‘new’ energies arise. Before Eris and Sedna, I was looking for other ‘rulers’ of Virgo and Libra. In fact, various facets of Venus didn’t seem to ‘fit’ the basic qualities of either Taurus or Libra...tho’ Libra seemed best ‘fit’...something was ‘missing’, so chose ‘Persephone’ – hypothetical (10,000 + years circumnavigation) ...but worked well between Virgo and Scorpio...Ceres and Pluto/Demeter and Hades. So now, there are more, and actually discovered bodies out there...and there is Sedna at around that period. Hmmm.
”These seemed to me to be, for Eris, the competitive nature of Taurean expression (for resources rather than against opposition)...”
That is surely happening, and hadn’t looked at Taurus/Venus ‘rulership’ in this light before.

So this is how it’s ‘changing’ now. ? Tho’ was obviously always that way, given that every agricultural society had to fight in some way to maintain, sustain and therefore to ‘exist’. Good Point.
For Sedna, the Virgoan urge to maintain and repair, informed by the capacity to make accurate models. Sedna wants to clean up, to streamline and simplify the world, to keep it neat and ticking over. Consider the Virgoan connection with health and hygiene; the word "disinfectant" is not very Mercurial
.

What is confusing is the fact that, once we ‘went’ beyond Eris, the nomenclature moved from Greek and Roman to ...Inuit. Interesting to say the least ?
”It was also important that both planets "sat well" in Aries, otherwise we'd have gotten some very atypically Arian types over the course of the planets' tenancy of this sign. Giving a competitive definition to Eris and a cerebral one to Sedna works well”.
Sedna was discovered on 13 Nov. 2003, at 10.33pm at Palomar Mnt. California, in the 18th degree of Taurus...”a degree of ‘quarrels’ and all set up for ‘the crowds’. “Perfect timing is necessary...killing, murder, fertility, and rebirth out of the personal ego, the primitive bull...” I don’t see Sedna like this, but ‘she’ did refuse the husband her father wished for her to take. He took her out in their kayak, and threw her out when he was threatened as the waves grew bigger. She tried to get back in, and her father cut off her fingers. So, she’s not a happy lady. Took to the oceanic depths and thereafter protects all sea/Neptune creatures.

“Inevitably we look for Sedna and Eris in charts before their actual discovery...just as we did with Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. They were all there, even tho’ we didn’t ‘know’ them”.

With regard to your view about Sedna connection re
“wants to clean up, to streamline and simplify the world, to keep it neat and ticking over. Consider the Virgoan connection with health and hygiene; the word "disinfectant" is not very Mercurial”...
I’m still not sure that I can relate to this. Clearly I have to do more work to follow this concept through, tho’ I’m starting to see the connection:
Sedna percieves the outer
world with dissatisfaction, almost like Uranus....but since Virgo rules the stomach, this is felt more viscerally. Perhaps disgust is a better word. It is disgust which prompts us to clean up, to put right.”

Yes, that is what the mythology of Sedna seems to be about at the most fundamental level. But, Virgo ‘rules’ the small intestine, not the stomach per se ?
“...This can have positive consequences (e.g. Joseph Lister)”
...Crumbs, you send me on long journeys! ...inevitably had to look up this person. Perhaps you would tell more about him ?
“...but let's consider a profoundly negative example, that of Adolf Hitler.

Hitler's Moon-Jupiter conjunction in Capricorn is squared by Sedna from Aries. Sedna must therefore
view this conjunction unsympathetically, and it's easy to do so; the Moon is in its detriment, and Jupiter
feels the constraints of the earth element. If Sedna views this constraint with disgust, it might indeed form
an ambitious (Capricorn) model of an expanded (Jupiter) home base (Moon) for oneself or one's people (Moon); the policy of Lebensraum. But why was the realisation of this model attempted in so brutal a fashion?”
For those who don’t know the word:
Lebensraum:
"[W]ithout consideration of "traditions" and prejudices, it [Germany] must find the courage to gather our people and their strength for an advance along the road that will lead this people from its present restricted living space to new land and soil, and hence also free it from the danger of vanishing from the earth or of serving others as a slave nation.
--- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf 1
The geopolitical concept of Lebensraum ("living space") was proffered by others in Germany decades before Adolf Hitler came to power. In 1871, for example, Lebensraum was a popular political slogan during the establishment of a united Germany. At this time, Lebensraum usually meant finding additional "living space" by adding colonies, following the examples of the British and French empires.


In an era when the earth is gradually being divided up among states, some of which embrace almost entire continents, we cannot speak of a world power in connection with a formation whose political mother country is limited to the absurd area of five hundred thousand square kilometers.
--- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf 2”
(extracted from http://history1900s.about.com/library/h ... 110899.htm ).

Sounds good, in essence, doesn’t it ? Except for one matter: everyone who didn’t ‘fit’ into it.

So, Sedna surely did view this with ‘disgust’ !

“Pluto is the planet most typically associated with fascism, and there is a close sextile between this and
Sedna. The opportunity to employ fascist cant and brutality in the pursuit of Sedna's aim? Certainly, but a
subtler interpretation is possible. Pluto is conjunct Neptune in Gemini, suggestive of the Norse myth of
the Fimbulwinter, of Ragnarok, of universal destruction”.
For those not familiar with ‘Fimbulwinter’:
Fimbulwinter: thirty months of unending ice and snow that herald the arrival of Ragnarok, Twilight of the Gods, when the Gods and Giants would rage across the land engulfing all humankind in one final cataclysmic battle
: http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/mythology/49743

Hitler's disgust may in turn have been employed
by this powerful archetype- a sextile is a trap as well as an opportunity.
Agree. Sextiles and Trines are surely not always 'easy' in a positive way. They can amplify the 'not so good' areas and energies.
Hitler's fascism is probably better explained by the affliction of the Mars-Venus conjunction by Saturn.
As Julia says in Orwell's 1984, "all this marching up and down and cheering and waving flags is simply
sex gone sour". But Mars has access to Sedna's energies via its rulership of Aries (Mars is also in novile
aspect to Sedna).”

For those not familiar with the novile aspect, these are planets that are 40 degrees apart.
Quote:“so Eris' capacity to make models is, in turn, easily integrated into this most dangerous configuration.

Eris in Pisces is rather subdued in this chart, but there is a quincunx to retrograde Uranus in Libra”. In the 12th, and ruling his 4th House !
“The cultivation of resources (Eris) is thus linked by debt or obligation (quincunx) to a revolutionary
and technological principle (Uranus)”

Spot on!
“But Pisces suggests diffusion and loss (Neptune afflicted by Pluto, Jupiter by Sedna,
so, Sedna here , and Libra has little chance of balancing Uranus (Venus afflicted by Saturn in its sign
of detriment). This is a sketch of the hyperinflation of the 1930s, a major biographical factor in
Hitler's life, and in that of his generation.

With a working hypothesis, it remained to consider those historical charts in which either (or, in the case of M. Thatcher, both) figured prominently. I have done this dilligently, and become quite convinced- but not so certain that I wouldn't be glad of a counterargument. Any strong objection, if overcome, would enhance our understanding”.
No objection there. Just, more questions, inevitably.

Thankyou for all of this. Your views are very much appreciate. Please do continue.

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Re: New Planets

Post by Mersenne » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:52 am

Thank you for your considered reply, Admin.

You're quite right, I should have written "abdomen" rather than "stomach", which I meant in the sense of a "gut feeling".

Joseph Lister, 5/4/1827 was a surgeon pioneering the use of antiseptics. He has Sedna in Pisces trine Moon in Cancer; an antiseptic environment.

The difficulty of interpreting historic charts is that we know what we're looking for. I advance the following, and invite the forum to consider the same in their own charts.

Eris; rules Taurus, sub-rules Libra. Feels the emotion of "want", which if afflicted becomes "greed". Eris is concerned with the qualitative value of things- from Eris' own point of view. Planets aspected by Eris are weighed and nmeasured, cultivated, farmed, reared up, in almost a Lunar fashion- but Eris wants a return, and this relationship could be one of exploitation if afflictions are present. Eris wants security, comfort, a return. Look to Eris to find the business head in a chart, the value (and price) of materials and labour, the understanding of give-and-take, of exchange rates.

Sedna; rules Virgo, sub-rules Gemini. Feels the emotion of "discomfort" or if afflicted "disgust". Sedna is concerned with the proper place of things- as Sedna's sees it. Planets aspected by Sedna are categorised, labelled, their workings reduced to a simple model, and if this is accurate, Sedna can maintain that planet, giving it robustness, the ability to bounce back, to work competently. If the model is inaccurate, due to afflictions (esp. from Neptune), Sedna will fix it even if it "ain't broke", doing damage. Sedna wants to keep things "ticking over", working to time and order. Look to Sedna to find the mechanical and organisational competence in a chart, the ability to correlate and identify, to label and order.

An interesting combination of Eris and Sedna occurs in the chart of Adam Smith, the pioneering economist. Eris is in Scorpio trine Sedna in Pisces. A model (Sedna) of the cultivation of resources (Eris), and the division of labour (Sedna) in production (Eris). The "Hand of Eris" may indeed be the "Invisible Hand" of the free market. The planets' are in their detrements, but economics is, after all, the "dismal science". We should expect a certain ennervation; and indeed the model as Smith conceived it was not the whole truth.
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