Pisces

[MalizenX]

Which Planet is stronger in PIsces : Mars or Saturn ?

Thanks

[admin]

Hi Mal,

As you know, neither planet is well-placed in Pisces as both find it hard to function to their best capacity. And as always, it will depend on the Houses they are in, the Houses they rule, and the aspects.

In your chart (which I assume you are referring to), they are in conjunction in the 3rd so any aspects will be to both. Mars rules your IC/4th – an area that that is mostly internalised, while Saturn rules your intercepted 1st. (I’ve just had a conversation with someone else on the forum about intercepted houses which you may like to read: ‘Transits’ (on main forum board); ‘Jupiter-Sun Conjunction...’; viewtopic.php?f=38&t=3278&p=14012&sid=7 ... cb8#p14012 ).

I would then look at which of these two ‘rises’ first, and that’s your Mars, so you would feel the rush and impetuosity of this first, and then retreat (Saturn).

Also in your chart, the Moon in Pisces in conj. with the Mars part of the Mars/Sat. conj. will act without thought and instinctively. The Saturn part of the conj. is then conj. your Sun, which controls your Ego (by which I mean your ‘Self’), and which both helps and hinders the expression of your ‘Self’, but is expressed more consciously. Of course, these 4 (plus Mercury in Pisces which precedes the Moon) although ‘combined’, will act in sequence – very quickly - in any thought, conversation or activity.

Then of course, Mars co-rules Scorpio (your 11th) and Saturn co-rules Aquarius (your 2nd), which gives more clues about their individual strengths. Both of those Houses are ‘succedent’ (‘fixed’ qualities), but the 11th is stronger because the ruler of that House (Pluto) is in that House. So this, I feel, adds weight to your Mars in Pisces.

However, I do feel that Saturn will ultimately be the stronger the older you get (as Saturn functions better with age, and also because it is closer to the Sun and the Sun too can grow stronger with age as your individuality develops more). Mars on the other hand, especially in closer conjunction with your Moon, is more likely to be the stronger of the two while you are younger, for the reasons mentioned above.

Hope that helps.

Best,
Admin.

p.s. Would you mind if I post your chart here so that if others are reading this they can see how this is relevant ?

[MalizenX]

Great view :O Of course feel free to post it . Well truth is i act very very fast even get things very quickly together and easy put them in my mind very fast can understand situation . On the other hand , maybe for the first time i say this , if i do not have Saturn i think i would blow things out very fast so at start i was kinda very angry for holding myself back but i think that is gift having it to make things (at start harder and frustrating ) more constructive direction . Imagine Moon -Mars- Sun in 3rd without saturn booted with square of Ascendant would be so much energy can go any direction , specially cause Mercury (starter) is very Shifting in 3rd house and get things fast . So i m kinda ''cursed on first look'' with saturn there but actually that is blessing (lol who would say it ) .

I read somewhere that Mars in 3rd decade of Pisces is in Triplicitet like 3rd strong effect that planet can have by position , check this out i was shocked actually Mars in pisces in 3rd decade is very strong (Analog to Scorpio probably as it 3rd water sign) . Next thing is Mars holds lower degree which means it start action before saturn holds it , so Mars control saturn but his actions are colored by Saturn of course . And another thing i notice is according to Vedic astrology Mars is very strong in 3rd house , they call 3rd house the house of courage and will power so you can guess what it means for Mars .

Now Saturn disposite Neptune (ruler of whole stelium) and Jupiter (ruler of Chart /Ascendant) which makes Saturn along with Neptune most important planets in chart ( there is lot of other important influences but when we put all together those 2 with Jupiter do all things there ) . Next thing is Saturn make 0'20 with Neptune sextile which have very strong impact , they are mutual connected which gives wight on importance of Saturn . And in end very interesting Midpoint combination there : Mars is on very functional midpoint of Moon/Saturn ( also on Sun-moon even more functional) while Saturn is on Sun/Mars ( 2 basic drives ) midpoint to structure direction of using energy forward , along with Ascendant activating that midpoint which is challenge to put it from inner world into outer expression .

Last fact that those two have is Quintile by Jupiter , isnt that very important thing . I always look that as some potential magic in the air for making my goals(Mars) with time (Saturn) happen (Jupiter ) . Just saw i have this look very nice as talent aspect or something like that < what you think of it ?

In end i think Mars is stronger in this position , but Saturn is more significant according to whole chart . Of course i maybe shouldnt take out only one conjunction from stellum and analyze it cause there is 5 planets and will always influence all together . One interesting fact i found out i dont know how much is truth but its very interesting : No matter how much planets are in planetary conjunction , the one who holds lowest degree always control the way of how things goes to Native in that area where conjunctions are placed . What you think about this ?

[admin]

Malizen chart.png (113.91 KiB) Viewed 2185 times

Clearly you have an excellent understanding of this Stellium matter and have analysed it all very very well.

The 3rd Decanate of Pisces is, as you say, Scorpio, so yes, that would give your Mars more strength - again which I mentioned with regard to its co-rulership of your 11th, and a ‘weak’ trine (8 degs.) to Pluto in that House. So, as I said, that adds weight to the strength of your Mars; and of course, Moon, Mars, Saturn and Sun are all in this decanate.

However, I wouldn’t say that Mars ‘controls’ Saturn. Mars ‘acts’ first, then Saturn steps in and pulls him back/controls him.

If your birth-time is absolutely precise, then even though all 4 (Moon, Mars, Sat., Sun) are in square to the Asc., the exact square is from the Sun.

Re the quintile aspect: this is classed as an ‘abstract’ aspect. In other words, the talent and creativity (fifths of the 360 deg. circle) isn’t ‘obvious’ as it functions on a more subtle level, and the talent indicated can take a while to ‘surface’ despite the fact that it is very much there. Once you start getting into these ‘subtle’ aspects, there are so many that in the end, every planet aspects just about every other planet in some way, and much like the vast list of asteroids, trying to take on and include all of these can result in chaos and confusion.
However, naturally when you are concentrating on only one chart, such as your own, then these subtle aspects can help to flesh it out very well.

The quintile between your Jup. and Mars/Sat/Sun is surely relevant and suggests a talent for using those energies very creatively, which is telling you nothing new as you’re aware of this. However, you have to work hard to bring them out as other, stronger aspects (even sextiles) will work first and can ‘overpower’ in a way, the hidden talent to use your Sun in Pisces quintile Jup. And then of course, Jupiter is intercepted, so you have to work even harder to use that talent. Anyway, as I said, you seem to have a good grasp of all of this so perhaps these words are irrelevant to you.

Then there is – as you have said – the matter of the whole stellium working ‘all at once’. But again as I’ve said before, they act in sequence, though very quickly ...almost immediately. And re “...no matter how much planets are in...conjunction, the one who holds lowest degree always controls the way of how things go... ... ...”: by ‘lowest degree’ I think you mean the planet that ‘rises’ first, and I did try to explain that in my previous post here. So, Merc. (thought) comes first, followed by Moon (instinct), then Mars (action), then Sat. (holding/pulling back), then Sun (creating)...or words along those lines. And they follow each other so quickly, that it is hard to think of them as separate energies.

One other thing I’d mention is that of the individual degrees which, like the decanates, start at the beginning of each Sign with each 1st deg. of the Sign being the same as the Sign, and then following the Signs in sequence for each degree. For e.g. Merc. is in 20th/Libra deg; Moon in 24th/Aq. deg.; Mars in 26th/Aries deg.; Sat. in 28th/Gem. deg.; and Sun in 29th/Cancer deg. So you have even more sub-influences to each planetary position. If you follow those individual degree influences through to any planets or House cusps in those Signs, you’ll see that it adds another dimension to them.

Have Fun ! And hopefully someone else here will chime in with their thoughts here.

Admin.

[MalizenX]

Very true all of you write , but i just cant find out how those Degrees work . I know that for example there is 27 degree of Pisces ruled by Venus exaltation , which means my Saturn falls there . 15 degree of Capri is Jupiter falls so there is Jupiter etc .

I just wonder does Mars acting can be put into constructive action that will last longer because of Saturn , i do not believe that Saturn is just holder and stops Mars then this do not make any sense . There is for sure way to put Mars (energy) into constructive goals (Saturn) , actually that's the way i want to use this conjunction not just for pull myself back cause that would be lowest frequency of using such two magnificent planets .

Re : Mars trine Pluto ? I wasnt even sure does Sun have trine with Pluto cause dislocated signs (Sagi , Pisces naturally in square ) , but i consider Sun is in trine with Pluto as i feel that urge for self growth and deep self development . For Mars its i think to large orb , even wouldnt consider Saturn in trine cause is slow moving planet .

Re : Quintile abstract ? Not sure . My view is this : 360 / 1 = Conjunction , 360/ 2 = Opposition , 360 / 3 = Trine , 360/ 4 = Square , 360 / 6 = Sextile . Wait ! Where is 360 / 5 and who in the world cut that one and put 360 / 6 as important while 360 / 5 which is by the way before it as not important . All of those are major aspects except 360 / 5 for no real reason , except reason that do not connect directly 2 signs together . In other words 360 / 5 can be in Square signs same as in sextile Signs . Mars in 1 degree Aries can have Quintile with Sun in 19 Capricorn where Aries and Capricorn are square signs . But also Mars in 1 Aries can have Quintile with Sun in 13 Gemini where Gemini and Aries are sextile naturally . If this is reason for not being Major aspect it can be good reason . But also its reason why its Talent aspect or in other words Creative aspect , where stands between Sextile and Square it makes harmony for planets involved to work together and it makes tension for them to be used as effort . There is deal as one who do not develop those energies can have more destructive influence than constructive from planets involved , so its necessary for one to create and use that energy whole life . Otherwise that energy will work for it self finding creative effort for express energy of planets involved . So thats my reason why Quintile have to be consider as serious Aspect strength as Inconjunction . Inconjunction is not cut from 360 , its simple the aspect that consider dislocated signs together (signs that have not such common ) . Inconjuncts work for sure as Major aspects while Quintiles work as Major in eyes of other who see our creative expression but for one who use it seams natural and they dont even know they have it . Well sure you do not want to complicate in analyses and you focus on simple things as Major aspects + inconjunction which is fine , just put my point of view .

Cheers !

[admin]

Degrees for Pisces goes like this:

1st deg. (0 – 59’) – Pisces
2nd deg. (1 – 1deg.59’) – Aries
3rd deg. – Taurus
4th deg. – Gemini
5th deg. – Cancer
6th deg. – Leo
7th – Virgo
8th – Libra
9th – Scorpio
10th - Sag.
11th – Cap.
12th – Aq.
13th – Pisces
14th – Aries
15th – Taurus
16th – Gemini
17th – Cancer
18th – Leo
19th – Virgo
20th – Libra
21st – Scorpio
22nd – Sag.
23rd – Cap.
24th – Aq.
25th – Pisces
26th – Aries
27th – Taurus
28th – Gemini
29th – Cancer
30th – Leo

And so it goes with each Sign – the 1st deg. being the same as the Sign, and then each following degree in zodiac sequence.

Re Saturn and ‘holding back’: I’ll try to explain it again. In the sense that the planets follow in sequence (first Mars, then Saturn) then Mars acts, and then Saturn puts the brakes on. HOWEVER, the fact that they are in conjunction means that ultimately they act together. Remember that we’re talking about tiny increments of experience, so although they act in sequence, when it comes to a specific act, then they can be seen as working simultaneously. When interpreting a chart I would look at them as acting together rather than going into this sequential movement. And the only reason I went into this was because your were asking about the strengths of each of them, separately.

Re the ‘out of sign’ trines etc., this again adds another dimension to the planets involved. So for example the trines from your Pisces planets to Pluto in Sag. (those signs being naturally in square), the ease of the trine still stands. However, as the signs involved are ‘square’ each other, the trine functions with less ease than it would if the signs involved were ‘naturally’ in trine. (Water to Water, and etc.). When the ‘exaltation’ degrees are involved, they work similarly to the ‘exaltation’ in Signs. In other words, they function at a ‘higher’ level than they would in any other degree or Sign. (Well...that’s only my opinion of course).

Re “...I know that for example there is 27 degree of Pisces ruled by Venus exaltation , which means my Saturn falls there...” I’m not quite sure what you’re getting at here, and to be honest, I haven’t studied and followed the ‘degree exaltations’ of planets, at least not for many years. There are, as I’ve said, so many many facets of astrology that are truly fascinating, but complicate matters to the extreme. If you’re able to use all of these when interpreting a chart, then that’s terrific. But unless one is doing a full and personal chart reading, then it just isn’t possible to take absolutely everything available into account. (I used to do this when I did full chart readings, but they grew and grew – to over 200 pgs. long – so had to give up in the end).

If you go this far then there are all of the midpoints, Nodes of the planets, Fixed Stars, Arabic Parts, Asteroids, Heliocentric, Harmonics, Deciles, Quindeciles, Noviles, Biquintiles, Biseptiles and on and on...and on. When working with your own chart, of course it’s fascinating but, impossible to include (unless something stands out) in such general overviews on such as this Forum. And if you have found from your research that Quintiles are more than ‘abstract’/subtle, then that is something that we (the astrology community) should take into consideration as astrology is changing constantly, just as human understanding is also changing. And we have seen this happening very rapidly in recent years as more discoveries are made about the human psyche and, even as new planetary bodies appear revealing potentially new facets of human nature.

It’s all so very exciting, isn’t it ? And it’s people like you who lead us into new views of various aspects of astrology that keeps the system alive and vibrant, so please keep up the good work.

Best,
Admin.

[MalizenX]

Oh , thanks . Thanks for all of this help honestly i learned a lot things from your answers , thanks so much i m very grateful for it !

One more short question i have : Thinking of Moon conjunct Mars isnt that good aspect for one who have purpose in life or who have passion about something . If you say Moon is our instincts than we Act (Mars) on very instincts and we can do more than we would do usually without it ?

Thanks , have great day .

[admin]

Moon conjunct Mars is a ‘double-edged sword’. In other words it can work in the way that you suggest, i.e. provide the energy to act on one’s instincts and do so with, as you say, passion and purpose.

However, the other side of this is that sometimes those instincts can arise from a negative source, such as for example, when they are a reaction that arises from negative habitual way of responding automatically. Say that when you were a child you asked a lot of questions or talked incessantly, and a parent ignored you or kept telling you to ‘Shut up !’ so you reacted in frustration and anger. And then later in life when someone appears to do the same, the child inside automatically gets angry and responds ‘without thinking’, in the same frustration and anger, even if the other person was not actually meaning to ignore your or stop you talking at all. This is of course, only one possible example of when Moon/Mars would not work well for a person and is not necessarily your experience or way.

Then again, in your instance (the stellium), Saturn may learn eventually, to restructure the negative response and hold back the impulse, turning that energy to other more constructive uses and towards specific goals.

Hope that helps.

Admin.