Cardinality

[Lilith78]

Hello Everyone!

I am in the process of exploring the basics of Astrology. As much research as I think I have done, I still am very definitely an amateur. In this particular case, I have learned there are either 12 or 13 signs in western astrology. For now, I am only willing to work with 12, because of the reason mentioned previously. These 12 signs vary in several different ways. One sign is either masculine or feminine. A sign may be 3 different cardinalities: fixed, cardinal, or mutable. Furthermore, a sign may be one of four different elements: fire, earth, air, or water.

In regards to cardinality, a sign may be fixed, cardinal, or mutable. Here is the tricky part: a fixed sign is resistant to change, a mutable sign is well mutable. A mutable sign is at the opposite end of the mutability spectrum. At the other extreme is the fixed cardinality. This suggests that a cardinal sign is somewhere in the middle. However, I get the distinct impression, that if I drew a picture, these three cardinalities would not form a line. They would form a triangle. That is something that both intrigues me and confuses me. Suppose, I asked you a series of questions:
1. Is Aries less mutable than Leo?
2. Is Libra less mutable than Aquarius?
3. Is Cancer less mutable than Scorpio?
4. Is Capricorn less mutable than Taurus?

My guess is two things. You answer would not be the same for the four questions. Secondly, and this is assuming that people only answered yes or no, each person would answer differently. Heck, knowing my luck, if 20 people answered this question, 10 would say yes, and 10 would say no. So I would never know the answer to this question. Enough of my ranting about Cardinality. I do wish to know how you would answer this question.

[Erriiieeee]

The cardinal quality has always confused me but I'll give it a stab:

The cardinal signs correspond with the angular houses. These two correspond with the solstices, and equinoxes:

Aries: Vernal Equinox
Cancer: Summer Solstice
Libra: Autumnal Equinox
Capricorn: Winter Solstice

Cardinal signs amplify whatever they touch just like any planet that aspects the angular houses tend to hold a lot of power in the chart. So it's not whether they are more/less fixed, or mutable then so-so. I lost my train of thought but hope that adds some insight!

[Noel Eastwood]

Hi Lilith, can I just answer the 12 or 13 signs question? Astrologers only use the 12 signs, always have and always will, it is only astronomers who want to play games that bring this question up all the time.

As for your question I would like to add to Eries excellent post. The example: "Is Aries less Mutable than Leo?", is explained like this:-

Aries is Cardinal / Fire
Leo is Fixed / Fire
Sagittarius is Mutable / Fire

All of them are in the middle of their spectrum, so none will be at either end of their spectrum. You are a plying a concept that doesn't really fit.

"Is Aries more Mutable than Leo?" doesn't really work as a question because neither are mutable. Does that explain it?

Perhaps if we looked at House cusp placements of the signs we might get some traction, but just plain signs alone, not so.

[Lilith78]

I know for me, and I am a Sun in Pisces, Geminian Ascendant, and Moon in Leo, that I very definitely view things in terms of my relationship with the environment. Thanks to Pisces, I frequently feel other people's emotions better than they feel them. Unfortunately, being around people that are alienated by me, results in my being alienated by them being alienated with me. Plus, in the physical environment, I am attuned with that as well. I care very deeply what happens to the Earth. Here in California we are experiencing a drought. However, I was taking measures in my family's house for well over 10 years. Now, I am unable to attribute that behavior to any sign. I say this for two reasons. One is that I am very interested in behavior, and astrology may be a tool for predicting behavior, but only if I understand it. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, I view mutable signs as having a particular relationship with the environment. In the case of Pisces, from Pisces perspective, it has an intimate relationship with the environment. This is especially true when there are emotions present in the environment.

Unfortunately, maybe I am too obsessed with comparing and contrasting the other cardinalities to this definition. I would love to know what kind of relationship Aries, Capricorn, Cancer, and Libra form relationships with the environment. I would figure figuring this out would be easier with the cardinal signs, because it seems mutable signs, which are heavily influenced by the environment, are complex. Perhaps, I am fooling myself again, because cardinal signs are somewhat lacking in my chart, so it is harder for me to relate to them. When I am able to compare and contrast the various cardinalities, I will have that much better an understanding of them. I am guessing you may tell me that I am comparing apples to oranges, and leave it at that.

[Noel Eastwood]

Lol, in some ways yes you are comparing apples to oranges. I would say that each sign views the environment in their own unique way, that is our task as astrologers: to understand the why and how of all the complex astrology components.

That is why astrologers study astrology for years an years, because it takes that long to fully understand, if it is at all possible to fully understand anything.

[Lilith78]

I hope this mentality does a better job of edifying than confusing, but I fear that it will confuse. I laid a trap when I said, "Comparing apples to oranges." Both apples and oranges are fruits. Therefore, one can compare the two. It is not easy, but when someone seeks the roots (IE the basics) they need to accomplish. As fruits apples and oranges have several things in common. An apple has seeds embedded inside of it. So does an orange. When you plant the seeds of an apple and the seeds grow up to maturity, each seed will become an apple tree. The same is true of an orange seed. The list goes on. As fruits, neither fruit is a leaf. Nor are the fruits the tree itself. Plus, the fruits are not the roots of the tree. This is what it means to be a fruit.

In regards to mutable signs, they are the most easily influenced by the environment. I know this is true in comparison to the Fixed signs, and it is probably true in comparison to the Cardinal signs. However, Pisces and Gemini differ from each other in that they respond differently to the environment. Like I may have mentioned earlier, I am great at absorbing new knowledge. I just suck at explaining it. This is one of two reasons I have come to this website. I want to do a better job of explaining the knowledge I possess. What is incredibly awkward is something I learned about Gemini Rising. Gemini Rising natives know that they know best. Unfortunately, I have convinced myself of this fact, and it comes across as either too much intellectual arrogance or too much humility. Plus, knowing that I know best does nothing for how I communicate this knowledge.

Going back to Pisces versus Gemini, Gemini responds to the environment by thinking about the environment, and absorbing knowledge. Whereas Pisces responds to the environment by trying reflect the environment in their beliefs. One of my hypothesis, and I lack the means to testing this theory, is a person forms beliefs more slowly than a person thinks. Furthermore, Gemini has more thoughts in a given day, then Pisces has beliefs in a given day. On the flip side, beliefs are much more permanent than thoughts. A belief evolves and eventually is crystallized. Whereas the only way a thought becomes crystallized is by becoming a belief. The thing that Gemini has in common with Pisces, is Gemini's thoughts and Pisces's beliefs are products of the environment they live. Just as an apple becomes juicy thanks to its environment, a belief becomes juicy thanks to its environment, too. As much knowledge as I seem to possess, I am still a believer in this simple truth: "I know I know nothing." This, and my inability to convey my knowledge, is why I am on these forums. No matter how much I think I know, and perhaps actually know, there is always far more that I do not know. So long as I hide in my ivory tower, I will never know anything. So thank you for helping me to do a better job of explaining myself, and for granting me the opportunity to learn from you.

[Noel Eastwood]

Hi Lilith, lol, you tricked me? You make me smile because sometimes I need to be reminded of my own humility

We need to invite Whilrbee to help discuss these issues, that is an area she specialises in. The philosophy and theory of astrology is something I sometimes struggle with. You see I am very pragmatic, if it works I use it even if I don't understand how or why. As a therapist I love the 'doing' part but the thinking part makes me think too much and my brain sometimes revolts and shuts down.

[whirlbee]

Hi everyone,

Well, I see Cardinal signs as oriented towards changing their circumstances. "What can I do with this? How can I use this to do/create something?". You put them in a forest, and they will see it in terms of things that should be done (let's remove the debris from that stream, let's treat those trees before they infect the whole forest, etc).

Mutable signs, on the other hand, are oriented towards adapting to circumstances. "How do things work here, what do people need/want, how can we all exist together in a way that is good for everyone and every living thing?". When they are in the forest, they will be fascinated by its ecosystem, how plants and animals live together, how they depend on each other, and so on.

And fixed signs fall between these two modes. Between "what can I do with this?" and "how can I adapt to this better?" there are the questions of "who am I?" and "what is the true/deeper meaning of this?". And, of course: "why?". They will go in the forest and ponder about what makes a forest a forest, why forests exist, why it is meaningful that they are there, and, ultimately, what is the meaning of life. - Chances are, no matter where you put them, they will end up pondering about the meaning of life, lol (I have six planets and two angles in fixed signs).

[Lilith78]

Something I am slowly learning about, and quite fascinated by is that I am sometimes seem to tap into my Leo Moon. As I am sure you know Leo is a fixed sign. I believe it is thanks to this sign that my determination in some things is incredibly strong. Even though I hated going to school, and had mixed feelings about getting my Bachelor's degree, I still did. It took me from the moment I was born to getting my Bachelor's a total of 32 years. 32 years is frequently enough time for many people with a PHD to get that degree.

A second example of my determination, is I received a SCUBA diving license. For much of my life, and this dream is not totally unrequited, I was and still am very interested in research Marine Life. Then for my 16th birthday, one of my gifts was lessons on how to SCUBA dive. On the first day, and I fail to recall all of the details, I was floating on the surface with many other SCUBA diving students. I distinctly recall getting seasick as a result of this experience. Later on that evening, I got very frustrated with myself. I had spent a huge amount of time researching and being interested in researching marine life. Now, that I was about to gain my license, I was considering say to heck with all that effort and calling it quits. My frustration with myself reached a boiling point. Now, I am guessing this level of frustration is nothing unique for a Piscean, but my response to it feels like a Leo thing. My determination kicked in, and I bent reality to my will. "Bending reality to one's will", at least according to Joanne Woolfolk, writer of a very well selling Astrology, is something Fixed Signs do well. This is why I put them at the extreme.

My guess, and while extending your analogy, the mutable signs are heavily affected by the forest. A Pisces digests its beliefs in what the forest offers, Virgo analyzes the forest and its various inhabitants, Gemini thinks about the birds and butterflies and may even chat with the trees, and Sagittarius takes in all the sights. However, Scorpio being a fixed sign, first realizes what it desires, and then seeks to change the forest so its desires are met. Taurus, another fixed sign, determines what it needs, and goes about getting these things. She may possess various trees, and bend them to her will, by using the trees to provide her shelter. Aquarius, yet another fixed sign, gathers knowledge. Knowledge that will help Aquarius live a better life. Unfortunately, Aquarius sometimes has the habit of not listening to its or other's emotions. So there is a chance the knowledge will only be used to grant Aquarius itself a better life. Lastly, but not leastly, Leo is the sign of the will. Leo is a leader, just like the king of the Jungle, and perhaps like the Lion in Narnia. Part of his will is eating the herbivores in the forest. Another part is finding and bending a queen to his will. Each fixed sign is resistant to change, and is able to bend an environment to its will. This in turn places the mutable signs at the mercy of the Fixed sign.

In my case, my Moon, my Saturn, and my Uranus are the only heavenly bodies in Fixed Signs. While, I can appreciate them, I am not sure how good a job I just did of adding to this conversation, or adding to your extensive preexisting knowledge of fixed signs. However, I have been observed what impact Pisces has on me, because up until the last five years, I only cared about my Sun sign. I have done it in a variety of ways. So rather, than telling me more about your own knowledge, please let me know how accurate my knowledge seems to be. Pretend, I am a student in your classroom, and I just handed you my report on Fixed Signs. What grade and more importantly what critique (both positive and negative opinions) of what I have said.

I look forward to hearing your responses. I am grateful for the analogy you told me about in regards to the forest.

-Lilith

[Noel Eastwood]

I think Whirlbee and Erie are much better at this than I am, thank you for stepping and helping.

As for your Leo Moon Lilith, you may be surprised that the Moon is the most expressed of all our planets and points. In most cases it is more pronounced than the Ascendant. You may just need to become a bit more atuned to her to feel her particular energies. I am very pleased you mentioned her at last, I have been waiting for that